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Post by Seattleite on Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:18 am

Had to happen eventually, better do it before the next set.

The main problem is RMR. Even if Moroi is changed, Corpse Shield still exists. And corpse shield is by no means OP'd.

2 possibilities I thought of:

* Limit Rabisu

* Add: "If this card is removed from the field after being SS'd by this effect, it is removed from play, and its effect is negated." *NOTE: This means even after using Respected Burial, etc. it still won't be able to SS itself.


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Post by Ash on Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:58 am

limit rabisu
semi moroi

that'll work rite?
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Post by Seattleite on Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:06 am

i s'pose
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Post by CNo.101 S.H.Death Knight on Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:35 am

i'm with snowy on that one

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Post by Anime Girl References on Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:28 pm

And corpse shield is by no means OP'd.

-feels a very sick feeling in my stomach after reading that comment-

...Corpse Shield is by no means overpowered, at all. It's nowhere close to overpowered. You have got to be either drunk or playing OCG Vol. 6 to even think this. Being able to negate attacks equal to the amount of zombies removed is not overpowered at all, although removing them completely is the worst thing about the card I say, since this game has almost nothing to benefit zombies being removed except the cards I made (such as RMR and Lichwyrm). The equivalent of this would be an Insect Neglect, which is nowhere close to being overpowered (or powerful for that matter).

When using with Rabisu it becomes remotely beneficial, if not badly hindering. The point of the game is not to have drawbacks that benefit the opponent, but to have "REASONABLE COSTS". Drawbacks are just laughable methods of balancing cards that hinder you in ways you should be able to ignore, or with some kind of laughable Full Metal Alchemist philosophy.

It's been very effective lately but it's not capable of winning games by itself unless the conditions allow it to. Being able to come back by its own effect makes it one of the best zombies I have seen so far, and usually it's nowhere close to this effective. Thanks to the lack of adequate counters, support, and anti-swarm bulk my cards have been able to get away with more things than they normally should. Seriously, there are only like 20 or less Summon negators or hinderers in this game alone, and they only negate once. There is so much monster emphasis in this card game that spell and trap cards almost become moot. There's no RFP negation, no monster stealing/flipping, hell, no wonder a simple combo such as Mystical Mage + Skullblade is limit-worthy here. It's a simple combo with no major advantage manipulation, but since this places lacks any decent and non-shitty countering, things as simple as that can run over the other garbage here, or oppress newer decks.

Lets take minor Goblin Official into thought. Is it balanced? Yes. Is it any good? No, not at all. It's situational effect trigger is so restrictive that this card would be dead draw until it comes to the end game, which makes it completely pointless until then. What happens if you draw it? You can't use it. Not only that, it's effect is absolutely horrible to begin with so the only reason it would be balanced is because it's not overpowered.

* Add: "If this card is removed from the field after being SS'd by this effect, it is removed from play, and its effect is negated." *NOTE: This means even after using Respected Burial, etc. it still won't be able to SS itself.

So in other words it becomes as useful as Vampire Dragon or Archfiend of Gilfer? No thanks. This errata aims to kill off the usefulness of Rabisu entirely, not serve to reduce how much power it has. This would only make it come back once, which would make me either have to jump through a double grave summon in order to get it back, or to just let it sit there unable to come back by it's own merit and wait for another card to resummon it.

I don't see why this wouldn't apply to Skullblade as well since it's a much faster version of this card to begin with. the only difference is that Rabisu is much more easier to remove since I made cards that directly effect it and work with it since the other zombies were such a scrambled mess there was no core theme I could build with them to make them effective on a pedigree scale.

The thing is, I would be okay for limiting Red Moon Rabisu for now, but I expect this place to get out of the "loser's rut" as it's called, because as Seattelite said, this place shouldn't be like the TCG, where money cards, OTKs/FTKs and Tier X1 decks dominate everything and segregate everyone into playing one deck, but it should not be a baby crib for people to pander to shitty gametypes and weak archetypes/deckstyles either. There is a reason those rarely win, and it's not because Lightsworn or Blackwings kill them off too easily, it's because they are clunky and worthless. I understand that there are decks here who work so poorly they cannot win at all, or rarely win, and combos like Mystical Skullblade or RMR Moroi can gain significant advantage over said decks and reduce them to shambles, and allow stonger decks a monster engine for tributing and field prescence, but I expect that later those decks get better.

I don't enjoy having to hinder or prevent myself from making effects because some weaker decks can't handle it. I can understand some effects are just too powerful for any game (if over Tier 1 power), but I hate having to stop myself from making certain cards or weakening my own just because the rest of the decks are too weak and have very few defenses to it. It should be the responsibility of the deck makers and card creators to make sure their cards are not filler-worthy or Tier 3 (which is the lowest of all usability tiers) and aim to make them better, so other card makes who do make very powerful and very effective cards to not have to "run next to the slowest runner" as it's called.





My Suggestion

Limit Red Moon Rabisu (just until the other decks can handle it being at more than one.)

Semi-Limit Moroi (just until the other decks can handle it's summonability threshold)

Absolutely no Errata.
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Post by CNo.101 S.H.Death Knight on Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:41 pm

calm down the main suggestion is to limit and semi limit before the corpse shield suggested and since i use that spell car i don't even know if it's Oped though. but hardly i dun think it is Oped though, it very removable on the field anyway.

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Post by Seattleite on Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:55 pm

Darkest Hour wrote:
And corpse shield is by no means OP'd.
...Corpse Shield is by no means overpowered, at all. It's nowhere close to overpowered. You have got to be either drunk or playing OCG Vol. 6 to even think this.

Exactly...? If we are in perfect agreement on this, why bring it up?


Darkest Hour wrote:
Thanks to the lack of adequate counters, support, and anti-swarm bulk my cards have been able to get away with more things than they normally should. Seriously, there are only like 20 or less Summon negators or hinderers in this game alone, and they only negate once. There is so much monster emphasis in this card game that spell and trap cards almost become moot. There's no RFP negation, no monster stealing/flipping, hell, no wonder a simple combo such as Mystical Mage + Skullblade is limit-worthy here. It's a simple combo with no major advantage manipulation, but since this places lacks any decent and non-shitty countering, things as simple as that can run over the other garbage here, or oppress newer decks.

So, anti-swarm as in "Bottomless" or "Royal Oppression"?

If you suggest people run the bottomless-style, even if they already have, it won't be enough. It just encourages more swarming to overcome such cards. And decks that don't swarm will be at a greater disadvantage, since they can't "play over" it.

If you suggest people run Royal Oppression-style, that implies a problem with SS'ing in general, and that it's so powerful the only good way to stop it is to run cards that specifically negate SS's. That's fine and dandy, but it takes up deckspace which could be used for combos or those previously-mentioned bottomless-style cards.

Either way, the combo has swarmed faster, more consistently and with more reusability than any other combo i've seen in the LCCG (after the reset).

Darkest Hour wrote:
Lets take minor Goblin Official into thought. Is it balanced? Yes. Is it any good? No, not at all. It's situational effect trigger is so restrictive that this card would be dead draw until it comes to the end game, which makes it completely pointless until then. What happens if you draw it? You can't use it. Not only that, it's effect is absolutely horrible to begin with so the only reason it would be balanced is because it's not overpowered.

um, yeah. But i don't understand what this has to do with Rabisu and Moroi.



I don't see why this wouldn't apply to Skullblade as well since it's a much faster version of this card to begin with. the only difference is that Rabisu is much more easier to remove since I made cards that directly effect it and work with it since the other zombies were such a scrambled mess there was no core theme I could build with them to make them effective on a pedigree scale.

And it is a big difference. Skullblade is also limited because of that, and it has less ATK than Rabisu anyways.




The thing is, I would be okay for limiting Red Moon Rabisu for now, but I expect this place to get out of the "loser's rut" as it's called, because as Seattelite said, this place shouldn't be like the TCG, where money cards, OTKs/FTKs and Tier X1 decks dominate everything and segregate everyone into playing one deck, but it should not be a baby crib for people to pander to shitty gametypes and weak archetypes/deckstyles either.

Lol. I love the way you put it, but yes, that's exactly the target of the CCG.


I don't enjoy having to hinder or prevent myself from making effects because some weaker decks can't handle it. I can understand some effects are just too powerful for any game (if over Tier 1 power), but I hate having to stop myself from making certain cards or weakening my own just because the rest of the decks are too weak and have very few defenses to it. It should be the responsibility of the deck makers and card creators to make sure their cards are not filler-worthy or Tier 3 (which is the lowest of all usability tiers) and aim to make them better, so other card makes who do make very powerful and very effective cards to not have to "run next to the slowest runner" as it's called.

I'm fine with that, but until I see more of that happening I gotta sympathize with the lower decks. The standard of power can be whatever, as long as all aspects of the game are balanced and there isn't one element, or theme, or group of cards that overbears over another. Right now I see RMR and Moroi causing lots of swarm, other decks can't utilize anything to combat them other than tons of anti-swarm, and that would be unbalanced and taking up deckspace. So naturally, they are the ones to be changed.





My Suggestion

Limit Red Moon Rabisu (just until the other decks can handle it being at more than one.)

Semi-Limit Moroi (just until the other decks can handle it's summonability threshold)

Absolutely no Errata.[/quote]

Thanks.
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Post by Anime Girl References on Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:07 pm

So, anti-swarm as in "Bottomless" or "Royal Oppression"?

If you suggest people run the bottomless-style, even if they already have, it won't be enough. It just encourages more swarming to overcome such cards. And decks that don't swarm will be at a greater disadvantage, since they can't "play over" it.

If you suggest people run Royal Oppression-style, that implies a problem with SS'ing in general, and that it's so powerful the only good way to stop it is to run cards that specifically negate SS's. That's fine and dandy, but it takes up deckspace which could be used for combos or those previously-mentioned bottomless-style cards.

Either way, the combo has swarmed faster, more consistently and with more reusability than any other combo i've seen in the LCCG (after the reset).

Has Royal Oppression ever prevented swarm from overcoming the meta? No. Do you know why? Because they weren't good enough. Royal Oppression's cost was laughable, and since both players could use it, it's benefits were very odd and even, if at all useful. Since it had so many vulnerabilities, it was nearly impossible to use effectively once your opponent already got monsters out. Since you had to PAY to prevent them from summoning monsters, and they had to pay nearly nothing for their summons (Blackwing Gale, Cyber Dragon,Dark Armed, Judgment and what not) the whole point of even bothering with that was never worth it.

Bottomless Trap Hole had to sit there for a worthy target to come by, but it could only hit monsters above 1500 ATK, and it not only destroyed them, but removed them from play, triggering two types of defense boundaries and activating two different types of AuD effects. Guess what cards were used for tech and S/T removal? Small monsters who ducked over it's deathknelling 1500 ATK limit, and this effectively knocked Bottomless Trap Hole from Tier 2 to Tier 3. It may seem powerful because of it's effect, but the fact that it's so laughably hard to activate there was few reasons to keep it out or put it in a deck.

A good suggestion would be a Black Horn of Heaven. It negates the summon of a Special Summoned monster and destroys it. for free. It was a very good card, a counter trap too, but the fact that monsters benefit from being in the grave and can get out more monsters this way, and traps are just plain dead in the GRaveyard, this was a mechanic that had to be addressed. A Monster vs. S/T +0 generally isn't a good outcome because of the fact that grave'd S/T don't do anything beyond that.

And yes, I have made an effective summoning pair, if I do say so myself. If I made cards that could help with all of the Special Summoning problems for the next set, could the condemning sentence be a little less harsh?

I'm fine with that, but until I see more of that happening I gotta sympathize with the lower decks. The standard of power can be whatever, as long as all aspects of the game are balanced and there isn't one element, or theme, or group of cards that overbears over another. Right now I see RMR and Moroi causing lots of swarm, other decks can't utilize anything to combat them other than tons of anti-swarm, and that would be unbalanced and taking up deckspace. So naturally, they are the ones to be changed.

I unfortunately, cannot. What is the weakest tier-worthy deck on LCCG that is used regularly, so I can get an idea for what I will do next? From what I know, i am 2nd to last since I have only won 2 duels, and I have lost 6. Only one win was gained from my Zombies that I recall, and it took belting out a face melter to even get that win. Before that, Moroi and RMR were just quirky Zombies that people paid no mind to.

It's not considered "taking up deckspace" if adding defense against the opponent's deck is important. Not everyone's deck should be turbo or geared towards only letting their own strategy win, you know. If you refer back to my giant metahelp threads that everyone but me ignores, I refer to a thing called protection and pressure, where you add cards to reduce the effectivenes of the opponent's cards and derail them from focusing on their strategy.

It makes it too convient if the opponent can put everything they need to win in their deck and be allowed to get away with running no defensive buffs, defensive traps or offensive cards. If it's all Support field spells/continuous spells/normal spells, straight pawn monsters and a big boss monster, then of course they would be vulnerable to counters and traps. That's one of the decktypes to take advantage of.

The problem with everyone running a turbo deck, swarm deck or field toolbox deck is that...nobody is running well-thought-out counters to each other, and then things begin to get more of "Let's see who gets their monsters out first". If you are aware that you can't get out everything you need the quickest, then you need to innovate a way to slow your opponent down.

So naturally, they are the ones to be changed.

I am not going to change these cards to knock them down to tier 2 or tier 3 throttled power, at all. I would like to figure out a way to keep these cards as is, without having to butcher the effects to add un-necessary hindrance or faux-balance to their effects. I can accept a limit and semi, but to errata their effects? No, I won't accept that. I got the offense out of my system once this was offered, because normally for some reason I take it personally when people change my cards, and now I understand why people disliked having their cards suggested to be nerfed.

Aside from that, I am to make sure you can't complain about swarming being a problem once I implement cards that assure that flooding entire fields with monsters no longer equals a perfect win (since monsters are used to win anyway this is hard to do, but I shall do it.)
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Post by Seattleite on Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:16 am

Darkest Hour wrote:

Has Royal Oppression ever prevented swarm from overcoming the meta? No. Do you know why? Because they weren't good enough. Royal Oppression's cost was laughable, and since both players could use it, it's benefits were very odd and even, if at all useful. Since it had so many vulnerabilities, it was nearly impossible to use effectively once your opponent already got monsters out. Since you had to PAY to prevent them from summoning monsters, and they had to pay nearly nothing for their summons (Blackwing Gale, Cyber Dragon,Dark Armed, Judgment and what not) the whole point of even bothering with that was never worth it.

Notice i said Royal Oppression-Style. A card more close to home would be Big Shield Locker or Blizzard. Same with Bottomless-Style, think of Hinderance.


And yes, I have made an effective summoning pair, if I do say so myself. If I made cards that could help with all of the Special Summoning problems for the next set, could the condemning sentence be a little less harsh?

That still implies a problem with the SS'ing itself. That's just like if Burn was top tier and everyone needs to run Shock Therapy. Would you rather have everyone run anti-whatever and take up deckspace or just fix the problem?


I unfortunately, cannot. What is the weakest tier-worthy deck on LCCG that is used regularly, so I can get an idea for what I will do next? From what I know, i am 2nd to last since I have only won 2 duels, and I have lost 6. Only one win was gained from my Zombies that I recall, and it took belting out a face melter to even get that win. Before that, Moroi and RMR were just quirky Zombies that people paid no mind to.

You said "tier-worthy". Why not try to make non-tier decks tier, then?


It's not considered "taking up deckspace" if adding defense against the opponent's deck is important.

No, S/T destruction, ordinary monster destruction is necessary and should have space alloted. Cards specifically designed to stop only Special Summons shouldn't, since that just means swarm is such a problem people can't just run normal Monster removal to get rid of it. And this is what I was talking about with Bottomless-style or Oppression-style: Bottomless-style cards would just be played over and encourage more swarm, the only alternative would be to run Oppression-styled cards. Also, Black Horn of Heaven would be under Bottomless-style; Every deck needs SSing, but those with more swarm won't be ruined as much by Black Horn of Heaven (or in the LCCG, something like Dreadcaster.)


Not everyone's deck should be turbo or geared towards only letting their own strategy win, you know. If you refer back to my giant metahelp threads that everyone but me ignores, I refer to a thing called protection and pressure, where you add cards to reduce the effectivenes of the opponent's cards and derail them from focusing on their strategy.

I see your threads and I comment on them. Yes, like I said before decks do need some disruption, but if you have to pay special mind to swarm, the game is not balanced. Why don't people have to tech anti-burn, anti-control, anti-whatever? Because swarm is much more powerful than them right now.



I am not going to change these cards to knock them down to tier 2 or tier 3 throttled power, at all. I would like to figure out a way to keep these cards as is, without having to butcher the effects to add un-necessary hindrance or faux-balance to their effects. I can accept a limit and semi, but to errata their effects? No, I won't accept that. I got the offense out of my system once this was offered, because normally for some reason I take it personally when people change my cards, and now I understand why people disliked having their cards suggested to be nerfed.

Yeah, i don't understand that at all. They are just cards, and if a nerf will be more effective while keeping the decktype or playability better, why not? Of course if my change would ruin the card, call me out on it. If you'd prefer a spot on the banlist (even if it nerfs your deck more than needed), so be it.


Aside from that, I am to make sure you can't complain about swarming being a problem once I implement cards that assure that flooding entire fields with monsters no longer equals a perfect win (since monsters are used to win anyway this is hard to do, but I shall do it.)

As long as anti-swarm is something everyone needs to specifically maindeck, it will be a problem.
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Post by Anime Girl References on Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:18 am

Notice i said Royal Oppression-Style. A card more close to home would be Big Shield Locker or Blizzard. Same with Bottomless-Style, think of Hinderance.

adding -like to the end of that statement could have meant it would be whatever you wanted it to be when I replied, there was no real point in even replying to that part. Argument filler is nice, but whatever. No. Big Shield Locker is similar to Vanity's Fiend and Fossil Dyna Pachycephalo. And, No. Hinderance is similar to Horn of Heaven. BTH doesn't negate summons.

And guess what? Big Shield Locker is one of the most effective swarmkillers there are so far in this game. It's just everyone's refusal to use it is what makes swarm so effective to begin with (or by other standards, my Moroi and Rabisu team since we are only taking these guys into question). Hinderance is good but is a waste of advantage for monsters that can get summoned without losing card advantage. Why is it that powerful counters always have the heavy costs while monsters are allowed to sometimes sherk their summoning costs, making the summoning counter trade-off very disproportionate? If a monster can come out for free, it should be able to be negated for the same amount of cards. Sure it sucks when slow cards get killed off for free, but that will happen. this game will never be perfect.

Would you rather have everyone run anti-whatever and take up deckspace or just fix the problem?

Stop using that statement like it's a bad thing. You are making it sound inconvient that running defensive measures against one of the best types of deckbuilds (next to lockdown which everyone generally hates) will benefit you later on. Swarm will always exist, and will always have a major effect on the game, since it revolves around getting monsters out. You are at a major advantage if you can get more of them out than the opponent, this happens. It's a core part of the game. If you don't want to deal with that, then feel free to lose. I, on the other hand, will either try to prevent my opponent from speeding past me, or use stability to survive their onslaught of monsters, or make sure the monsters that do come out are less effective than mine. I would rather not resort to petty measures to ensure slower decks can have a chance against faster decks that doesn't involve making new cards or making slower ones better (since the reason the game is so slow is because most of the slower cards don't compensate for their lack of speed, and instead just have a swell theme effect attached to it.) This is bad card design. If it wasn't Moroi and Rabisu outspeeding everything, it would be something else. As long as the slower decks don't make up for their slowness in any way, they are not going to have a good outlook on things. You either add something to slow down the enemy, speed you up, or equalize each other. I would prefer that method over errataing my cards or limiting/banning them.

I see your threads and I comment on them. Yes, like I said before decks do need some disruption, but if you have to pay special mind to swarm, the game is not balanced. Why don't people have to tech anti-burn, anti-control, anti-whatever? Because swarm is much more powerful than them right now.
Stop doing that. And no, in crude terms you don't need to "dump a whole lot of counters" into your deck if you don't like swarm winning. Sidedecks exist you know. If your deckbuild really really really can't fit some form of countermeasures into it, then you should try to fix that problem. There is no anti-burn/anti-control/anti-whatever because nobody made any, at all. I suggested something similar to Prime Material Dragon but people ignored it so I just deleted it. And you should try taking some of the advice and read the points I made in said threads, because if you actually did read them, you would understand why I am slightly annoyed why you are mentioning counters and anti-play defensive cards as "wasting space".

You said "tier-worthy". Why not try to make non-tier decks tier, then?
Okay, now that I have assessed the other points, I feel more comfortable in telling you this...how come you aren't playing a tier-worthy deck? Is losing or struggling to win against other decks beneficial to you?

If I recall, you make filler cards on purpose. As a player, and a fellow forum goer, I respect you, but as a card maker I am ashamed. Filler cards are a sacrilege to custom card games all around. Since this isn't a merchandise, why would you make cards that intentionally waste space in a set? Every card should have a marginal use. Making intentionally mediocre or bad cards fills me with sorrow. I have made some bad cards in the past (Wight Whispermaid, Churel Wightwisp, and Maiden of the Nightshade) but I tried to upgrade them in some manner to not become filler crap or non-tier cards that take up deckspace and don't have an effective usage opportunity. Yes, Tier X1 decks are bad for games because they prevent other decks from winning by setting the effect standards too high and are out of reach by common players.

They are just cards,
Ugh...the most disgusting argument anyone could ever fucking use. Demeaning the value of one's creations or work to justify a point, is something I absolutely hate. So fucking be it, you win that statement, whatever you were trying to prove, because now I feel very sick and would rather not even read the rest of it. Of course they are just cards. There is a thing called creator's respect though, where you don't dismiss something or ignore it because it's "not real", "worthless" or "unimportant". I wouldn't dismiss any cards I would want to change of yours in this manner, please do not do that to me.


As long as anti-swarm is something everyone needs to specifically maindeck, it will be a problem.
You have failed to prove to me that this is even a problem at all, and the exaggeration of said terminology is not helping you either. It's a simple thing called um..."expanding", where card creators learn the flaws and issues with a card game, and then aim to improve it as they make new cards. I would be willing to run any anti-swarm cards because not only would that prevent swarm decks from outspeeding me, but it would mean that I could use said cards to prevent my opponent from overexpanding on me and allowing my deck to endure their petty assaults, and eventually come out on top. You seem to be opposing this, trying to kill off the "expansion" and keep the game as is, standard, sluggish, simple plays and simple cards. If you do this for too long people will get bored and quit. I am willing to use anybody's cards as long as they are good. After all, playing casual slow games forever gets tedious because there is no room for expansion. Once somebody eventually makes an elite standard deck, what are they going to do? Mimic it? Build sidedecks against that specific archetype? No. Since most people here have the habit of running only the cards that they made, they have the power to upgrade their weaker cards to be more resilient, faster, accurate, with better stats or more targets. This is something that should be happening.

No, S/T destruction, ordinary monster destruction is necessary and should have space alloted. Cards specifically designed to stop only Special Summons shouldn't, since that just means swarm is such a problem people can't just run normal Monster removal to get rid of it. And this is what I was talking about with Bottomless-style or Oppression-style: Bottomless-style cards would just be played over and encourage more swarm, the only alternative would be to run Oppression-styled cards. Also, Black Horn of Heaven would be under Bottomless-style; Every deck needs SSing, but those with more swarm won't be ruined as much by Black Horn of Heaven (or in the LCCG, something like Dreadcaster.)
Please, did you forget that all of us make the cards here? If our Swarm counters are that bad then it's about time we improve them. And that's kind of a death in logic saying BHoH is below BTH when neither of them are any good and both kind of suck when it comes to stopping swarm. Bottomless Trap Hole can't stop swarming cards, only the big ones, and BHoH has to wait for a Special Summon to occur. In the other thing I made a good version/fusion of both cards without the arbitrary fail that was stapled onto them. And no, for the last time, stop pretending that running defensive measures is "wasting deck space". If you are doing it well you should be able to win without going "awww I can't run 3 copies of my most favoritest card ever this is boring".
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Post by Ash on Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:20 am

I'm going to assume this is resolved, mainly because I don't want to go through all the walls of text.

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