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Post by Evanm7 on Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:45 am

ALL IN FAVOR OF A RESET SAY AYE

SPONSORED BY ASH [22:25:46 19/12/13] @ Ash : i've been thinking about maybe us resetting again

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Post by Seattleite on Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:31 am

faaaaack no

edit : ok


Last edited by Seattleite on Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by EMSOUP on Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:33 am

Nah, we got a pretty good control of the meta now.
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Post by EMSOUP on Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:42 am

Nevermind, reset seems fine.

But please, make a powerlevel bar somewhere.

Oh, and that pre reset import set better be poster ASAP after decision.
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Post by Anime Girl References on Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:55 am

I say Neigh.

Instead of a reset we could always just delete/errata cards that are a problem.

Even Avatar of Extinction and Salvation.

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Post by ALiCE'S EMOTiON on Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:06 am

Darkest Hour wrote:I say Neigh.

Instead of a reset we could always just delete/errata cards that are a problem.

Even Avatar of Extinction and Salvation.

this

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Post by Ash on Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:18 pm

too many cards are a problem, to go through and fix errata everything would leave the game entirely unrecognisable.

the banlist cards are only the most obviously overpowered cards, there are so many more that leave potential abuse, lockdowns, floodgates and one-sided games. we have got so many things wrong that i really feel we need to start fresh to try and level the game out.

somewhere along the line we've been influenced by the tcg far too much that our levels of balance have become similar to theirs - searches for near everything, floodgate cards, easily droppable bosses, archetype domination, linear deckbuilding. and as i'm sure we're all aware, the tcg's level of balance is ruled by constant powercreep. i don't know about you guys, but i have definitely noticed an insane powercreep in the ccg. back in the day, mezzo beat was the most overwhelming card in the game. now its a small hiccup because icevales can drop frost breather turn 1 with alarming consistency. heat exposure was the most threatening backrow card, now diagryph shrugs it off and ends with a beater that protects the card that stops your backrow from touching either of them all while going +. tidal whale was a monster that hit 2600 for free and was a legitimate threat, but zombies can throw free beaters that set themselves up for the rest of the game and make free xyz monsters while recurring beaters and honests.

the game is beyond fucked up.

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Post by Ash on Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:20 pm

like really, honestly objectively look at the ridiculous things in the game.

emsoup's stuff that i like to bitch about is just the tip of the iceberg. and its a really fucking big iceberg.

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Post by EMSOUP on Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:07 pm

Hey, I only make obviously broken card.

Those are more easily handled since they're more noticeable.

Anyway, I'd say we should partially do what DH said when we do the reset.

Which means obliterating anything and everything that's powerful, or have a potential to be powerful. Or just plain shitty card.

And we should import more cards from the current set to the 3rd era. 200 seems to be kinda too few.
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Post by DIGITAL on Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:08 am

My opinion. We go through the current set and pick like 3-400 cards either from this era or the first era that we all agree are balanced and start fresh with stricter rules, more filtered sets, and much greater discussion each set.

(This will also make it easier to make the game ;D)
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Post by Ash on Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am

yes to all that except maybe the number of cards we keep

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Post by Seattleite on Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:53 am

Okay, there are a lot of broken cards. But there are also a lot of good cards, sub-par cards, and well-designed ones.

To suggest a "total" reset, or even only keeping 400 of the 2300 cards we have is overcompensating, and inconsiderate of those who stuck with the CCG for years (like me) and made cards every set, worked for hours to find images for cards, made decks, created strategies and overall invested too much time in this CCG to have all their work go down the drain.

Ash, you said yourself, "somewhere along the line we've been influenced by the tcg far too much that our levels of balance have become similar to theirs"... ok, where is that somewhere? We don't need to delete everything just because recently cardmaking has gone sour.

Besides, what would we do differently? Would we put in more time to stop broken cards coming in? Or would we continue to argue our sides about what is broken and what isn't and get nowhere? We need to come to a consensus on what the power level is and draw some clear lines.

If none of you feel like going through all 2395 cards and saving the ones that are actually not broken, then I will. But I'm not going to say "save exactly 300 cards" because that would be dishonest and inconsiderate.

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Post by Seattleite on Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:26 am

But I would be cool with deleting all of inh's and his alts cards because he is a dick

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Post by Ash on Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:18 am

Seattleite wrote:Okay, there are a lot of broken cards. But there are also a lot of good cards, sub-par cards, and well-designed ones.

i have a comprehensive list of broken and very poorly designed cards

To suggest a "total" reset, or even only keeping 400 of the 2300 cards we have is overcompensating, and inconsiderate of those who stuck with the CCG for years (like me) and made cards every set, worked for hours to find images for cards, made decks, created strategies and overall invested too much time in this CCG to have all their work go down the drain.

this is highly selfish of you, i thought you wanted what was best for the ccg.

Ash, you said yourself, "somewhere along the line we've been influenced by the tcg far too much that our levels of balance have become similar to theirs"... ok, where is that somewhere? We don't need to delete everything just because recently cardmaking has gone sour.

it was pretty shitty to begin with, but after careful consideration acrd is where the powercreep really hiked up. tttt is where it all just went completely south

Besides, what would we do differently? Would we put in more time to stop broken cards coming in? Or would we continue to argue our sides about what is broken and what isn't and get nowhere? We need to come to a consensus on what the power level is and draw some clear lines.

group set review helps draw a consensus, this would also be done to deliberate what cards we would keep on post-reset and further sets. i for one will put the time in to try and stop broken cards. additionally you're bringing up hypothetical power-level debates that may or may not happen to try and reject the idea and i think that is in poor taste.

If none of you feel like going through all 2395 cards and saving the ones that are actually not broken, then I will. But I'm not going to say "save exactly 300 cards" because that would be dishonest and inconsiderate.

i've gone through all 2395 cards to find the ones that are, that are susceptible to future abuse, mess with loopholes, promote mindless play and are in bad design. either we go on a mass listing spree to bring the power level down or we reset - continuing with our current state is not going to make the game enjoyable. listing all these cards would also be inconsiderate. to errata them all would be incredibly time-consuming and a cop-out.

resetting gives us the ability to do what should have happened this time round, manage the game much more carefully. we as a group have been inconsiderate to the actual game itself. its meant to be an enjoyable hobby that you can make friends over, people should be willing to duel. the way we are, i don't want to play if my opponent is going to flat-out otk me, or prevent me from playing, or setting up fields on turn 1 that are unbreakable. its not fun. how do figure people will want to stick around if thats all they get?

how do you expect new people to join if thats what they get?

with all due respect, please get your head out of your arse.

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Post by Anime Girl References on Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:46 am

We can still re-submit cards from this set to the new one, right? So we don't have to delete anything from the wiki?

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Post by Ash on Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:49 am

yeah we can do same stuff as before, and archive we don't take forwards

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Post by DIGITAL on Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:57 am

Sea you gotta realize that this would only be a positive.
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Post by Anime Girl References on Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:08 pm

That, and this could be like one of MTG's blocks. I don't think we have to delete all the cards, just consider everything from Enchanted Illusion (ENIL) to Cataclysmic Retribution (CTRN) as part of a Block. It would be like two different sets for Vintage and Advanced. We don't have to delete anything, but we can still start fresh in two different environments. This would allow us the ability to Cross-Test with something other than the TCG (since their power creep has been going on for years), and allow new ideas to take root without having to ban cards every set.

It's inevitable that cards will begin to get outclassed or broken as new cards come in, it always happens. The larger the sets get, the more cards get lost in the set and are remade until there is broken interaction or dust-collecting copies that flood out.

This way, people can play the ENIL-CTRN block if they feel our new block doesn't have enough variation, and people will make cards to influence the new set pool without being afraid of somebody else's archetype or older support from breaking their cards.

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Post by Ash on Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:10 pm

Darkest Hour wrote:That, and this could be like one of MTG's blocks. I don't think we have to delete all the cards, just consider everything from Enchanted Illusion (ENIL) to Cataclysmic Retribution (CTRN) as part of a Block. It would be like two different sets for Vintage and Advanced. We don't have to delete anything, but we can still start fresh in two different environments. This would allow us the ability to Cross-Test with something other than the TCG (since their power creep has been going on for years), and allow new ideas to take root without having to ban cards every set.

It's inevitable that cards will begin to get outclassed or broken as new cards come in, it always happens. The larger the sets get, the more cards get lost in the set and are remade until there is broken interaction or dust-collecting copies that flood out.

This way, people can play the ENIL-CTRN block if they feel our new block doesn't have enough variation, and people will make cards to influence the new set pool without being afraid of somebody else's archetype or older support from breaking their cards.

+1

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Post by DIGITAL on Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:41 pm

Darkest Hour wrote:That, and this could be like one of MTG's blocks. I don't think we have to delete all the cards, just consider everything from Enchanted Illusion (ENIL) to Cataclysmic Retribution (CTRN) as part of a Block. It would be like two different sets for Vintage and Advanced. We don't have to delete anything, but we can still start fresh in two different environments. This would allow us the ability to Cross-Test with something other than the TCG (since their power creep has been going on for years), and allow new ideas to take root without having to ban cards every set.

It's inevitable that cards will begin to get outclassed or broken as new cards come in, it always happens. The larger the sets get, the more cards get lost in the set and are remade until there is broken interaction or dust-collecting copies that flood out.

This way, people can play the ENIL-CTRN block if they feel our new block doesn't have enough variation, and people will make cards to influence the new set pool without being afraid of somebody else's archetype or older support from breaking their cards.

Well this was kind of the concept I was imagining. Except more along the lines of we collect the cards we feel are the bare minimum necessary for a set and rebalance them. Then as time progresses anyone wanting to return cards from Either Era 1 or 2 can have them reconsidered and rebalanced to fit. Like you said, no cards need to be deleted, just archived for potential future use.
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Post by Ash on Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:11 pm

[04:09:31] @ Ash : COME ON SEA JUST AGREE WITH RESET SO I CAN SLEEP HAPPY DAMNIT
[04:11:13] @ Ash : i just want to sleep
[04:11:16] @ Ash : pls

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Post by Seattleite on Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:14 pm

I'm sorry if I came off as overly defensive. But you have to understand - as someone who spends a lot of time with wiki work and stuff, the idea of erasing it all is threatening.

But DH, that is an excellent compromise. I understand cards are broken and listing/fixing them all is not practical. I get it. This way, we can get a "fresh" start on things without destroying all our hard work.

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Post by Ash on Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:19 pm

no-one ever wanted to erase anything, we just feel like this is the kind of change we need to promote play, activity and new members.

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Post by Seattleite on Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:23 pm

Whew, that's a relief.

So... how are we going to do this in YVD? To separate the blocks?

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Post by Ash on Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:24 pm

might have to go old school, 2 different .sets

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