Re: Next Phase in Set Creation: Archetypes

by Anime Girl References Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:52 am

AsianGuy1137 wrote:
Ash wrote:I'm just going to say that no card should enter the card pool in a state where it may already have to be listed. In my opinion, either the cards are submitted in a balanced state, or they shouldn't be entered at all.
If that were the case, at least half the archetypes out there would be unplayable, and cards like Solemn Judgment, Warning, Dustshoot, Heavy Storm, Sangan, etc... should never have been made. A card shouldn't solely be judged on its listing (apart from banned cards). Making cards that can be good but also unlimited narrows the range of possibilities for design whereas a card listing can limit the scope of of availability without sacrificing its usefulness. Saying a card shouldn't have to be listed might as well be tantamount to saying that the banlist shouldn't exist, and that all cards listed should have never been made.

I've been able to test my archetype pretty thoroughly, and they're somewhere in tier 2 by OCG standards. It really comes down to how restrictive you want to make it. Zombies, for example, had some crazy combos with Moroi and still do with the Zombie-themed Kalut that allows them to rapidly gain field control and maintain advantage while other archetypes out there don't have as easy of a time to setup their combos or recover. If you want to make Gravity tier 3 or worse, you could remove those cards. If you want Gravity to be at least somewhat competitive, then I think the cards should be included even if they might need a listing of some kind. I personally don't want to have to revise any of them except for Manipulator (maybe NS for search only/restrict search to monsters or just spells/traps).

This is my opinion which is always subject to discussion. I still consider myself to be relatively unfamiliar with the playstyle of the CCG which I mostly attribute to the inexperience I have with the different decks on here. Maybe I just need to duel more, but I really have no idea what the most competitive and most uncompetitive ones are. I recall seeing two Flash cards being limited and Ampule being banned, but I've never had any experience with them so I can't say I follow the reasoning. So to summarize, I just need to duel more, but I'm going to be really busy this upcoming week so please be patient with me.

Cards made with a place on the banlist in mind already have fundamental balancing problems. From what I know, the banlist here is used to change game balance without any intent to control card sales and such. When cards become a problem to the point where only one deck can win and runs the risk of funneling every playstyle into itself is the time where something is limited and such to prevent deck cloning or monodecking. This also applies to cards that kill off one other player's entire playstyle that they have no way of addressing. Since there are very few manners this can be countered without making entirely new side-deck cards, usually limiting is applied.

And yes, Solemn Judgment and the cards you mentioned should have never been made, but they exist in the TCG/OCG, which is why we don't use TCG/OCG cards in the CCG to avoid having to put up with cards like that. While spin-offs and clones are approved sometimes to be part of this, if it's for cards such as Sangan, Witch, Dark Hole, Monster Reborn and such, they are usually rejected because they cause problems with their sole existence whether they are playable or not.

by AsianGuy1137 Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:09 am

That's where we disagree then. There are some cards that are better in terms of playability, but listing them is what I consider to be a good way to allow them to exist, but require more skillful exploiting than just spamming three copies of the card. I think Solemn Judgment, Warning, Sangan, Trap Dustshoot, Heavy Storm, and a few other cards are very reasonable. They help each deck control the gameplay state in a way without being too overwhelming and serve as good generic support. Cards like Dark Hole and Monster Reborn or even the infamous BLS, on the other hand, should never have been made. Witch of the Black Forest is banned for a good reason, and I've mentioned that banned cards are a good example of what not to make. Sangan is really only abusable because of other inherently broken cards like Inzektors and Tour Guides. Otherwise, I think it's fine as a limited card.

When cards become a problem to the point where only one deck can win and runs the risk of funneling every playstyle into itself is the time where something is limited and such to prevent deck cloning or monodecking. This also applies to cards that kill off one other player's entire playstyle that they have no way of addressing. Since there are very few manners this can be countered without making entirely new side-deck cards, usually limiting is applied.

I don't think the two Gravity cards I mentioned can break the game to such an extent. They're not that competitive. They might serve as what the Sacred/Karakuri are to the OCG (which isn't anything that special, tier 2 somewhere) to the CCG on here - something semi-competitive, but not game-breaking. And as I've mentioned, many of the cards on here don't require entirely new side decks, just good general ones that disrupt SS, negate card effects, etc... Heck, cards like Scrap Confusion, Hostile Negotiation, Transcending Curses, etc.. should already be mained.

by Aquamarius Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:07 am

I agree with Asianguy about the listing thing, tbh. I don't have much to say about it though, since Asianguy basically said everything I would say.

I like the Gravity archetype. I'll be sure to play around with it when it's in. I notice Gravity Construct doesn't Banish itself when plain destroyed, though. It doesn't seem intended, seeing as the rest all Banish when destroyed. I understand that the search is intended to only be when destroyed by battle, but it's rather weird to have it only be banished by battle.
|Gravity Construct|0|GRV|Machine/Effect|Earth|4||1400|1800|When this card is Normal Summoned: Increase the Level of all monsters you control by 1. When this card is destroyed by battle: Special Summon 1 Level 4 or lower “Gravity” monster from your Deck. If this card is destroyed: banish it.|
Also, Gravity Guardians Rank is 4, even though it's description says 2 level 6 monsters. It also lacks the signature "banish when destroyed" effect.

by AsianGuy1137 Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:23 am

My first fan! Thanks for the support, although I feel that I didn't convey what I wanted to say too well. There's probably going to be some ensuing controversy.

Anyway, to answer a few of your questions:

Gravity Construct: Yeah, I noticed that too, but I didn't really do anything about it. I'm fine with it either way since it's not really the ideal target to search for with Golem's effect or Gravity Recharge.

Gravity Guardian: Yeah, misight on my part. It should be Rank 6. The banished when destroyed effect is really only for the strategic use with Golem and Recharge. Guardian's an Xyz that can't really be added to hand. I guess it's possible to SS from banished zone, but I don't really see the point of doing that. In the OCG, one of my favorite cards is The Sacred Pleiades, and it's abusable as hell with Xyz Reborn (and later Ptolemy). I was thinking that maybe if an Xyz Reborn was made for the CCG, it could be used for Guardian.

by **Seattleite** Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:25 am

without further ado I will add them to DODM.

I also made a small change to "Sharp-Edge Angel" if no one minds.

by AsianGuy1137 Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:40 am

Cool, also one question - the monster subtype for Gravity Guardian is XYZ so on YVD it shows up as a normal monster for me. I haven't been on xerocreative for sometime so I don't know if YVD can currently support XYZ monsters or if it's supposed to be Synchro just so it can stay in the extra deck.

by CNo.101 S.H.Death Knight Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:50 am

the subtype is Synchro so you have to this format for now until YVD get the frigging template and subtype added!!!

Do I have to send my template to YVD's team to get their asses on rolling?!

|______|___|___|_____/Synchro/Effect|__|__||____|____|(Xyz) 2 Level _ Monsters. (insert Effects here)|

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