Cards that should not be made/should refrain from being overmade

I was wondering about this. In this format, would a reasonably summonable Chaos Emperor Dragon, or a Yata-Garasu variant, or even a Mass Driver-like card be okay to make? What are the general limits of cards before their effect is unjustifiable? Can a reasonable Summoning condition, stat block, level, attribute and type be enough to allow one to make hand+field nuking card?

Good question. I'll offer my opinions on it:

CED:

Yata-Garasu:

Mass Driver:

Sorry for the huge essay, but I like discussions like these

Okay, next case in point, Generic Synchro monsters.

While I approve of a primary set that any deck can use, because most non-pure archetype decks that don't have the "Archetype" tuner + 1 or more certain "type/Archetype" non tuner monsters can't have access to base monsters, which makes it hard for them to gain defense against certain playstyles without some kind of "toolbox" to refer to for removal.

Then there are cards like Goyo Guardian, which are easy to summon 2800 beatsticks with the ability to steal tributable/synchroable monsters. What limits are needed or what cards are there going to be limits to for said "super synchros"?

well for like Goyo Guardian it doesn't have drawback of much, killing a monster it only a positive drawback since you destroy your opponent's monster. what you be looking for is this term "equivalent exchange" maybe the effect balance in bonus and drawback, so the greater the bonus effects the more fatal the drawback become or the harder the summoning condition it is the more rewarding the effect will be drawbacks are usually either in effect or summoning requirement. Goyo guardian is hardly at all of a drawback in both effect and summoning requirement thus now being banned. ppl saying brionac should be banned too but neutrally it balance but oped if have 3 copies of it. since the summoning requirement is the same as goyo guardian but weaker than him. the effect is a -1 for the hand so you will empty out your hand to return cards that will return to the field again some point. unlike goyo's it is not, the stealing is permanent until removed from the field.

the card with specification requirement like name type or attribute those won't be the like of "super synchro" when it need to be revolved around the following criteria in the deck but it can make it either hard or easier to synchro summon, it really depend though. r u reffering to the banlist in limit? or something else?

I will mostly agree with scheath here, Goyo is an issue of balance. We try to focus on making synchros less powerful than Goyo, Stardust, and Brionac. It's to allow use of Fusions, Rituals and even regular Tribute monsters as more viable options as boss monsters.

Right now we have a bunch of generic Synchro monsters, and only 1 limited one (rainbow tail). Some have removal like you said, some have high ATK, etc, but not without the appropriate costs. There is only 1 limited right now (Rainbow Tail), and that's probably all there ever is going to be, because a bunch of limited synchros isn't effective. Any other "super synchros", without being specific support and/or with the appropriate costs probably won't exist.

tl;dr: Seattleite hates synchros.

lol @ "Neo-Daedalus is too powerful"

In short, you can't release a card in this CCG that is equal or greater in power than any Tier 2 card in the IRL TCG. Look at the Tier 3 decks in the TCG - those are the kind of balance levels that are encouraged. One good outcome of this (I personally don't think it is a good thing) is that it teaches us to use limited resources when building decks, enabling us to have a greater eye for tech and combos.

Seattleite wrote:I will mostly agree with scheath here, Goyo is an issue of balance. We try to focus on making synchros less powerful than Goyo, Stardust, and Brionac. It's to allow use of Fusions, Rituals and even regular Tribute monsters as more viable options as boss monsters.

Right now we have a bunch of generic Synchro monsters, and only 1 limited one (rainbow tail). Some have removal like you said, some have high ATK, etc, but not without the appropriate costs. There is only 1 limited right now (Rainbow Tail), and that's probably all there ever is going to be, because a bunch of limited synchros isn't effective. Any other "super synchros", without being specific support and/or with the appropriate costs probably won't exist.

that is "mostly?? xD

@Alfred, I'm curious of knowing what tier exactly, i know i've seen ppl mention it but i never really understand them much, can someone explained simply?

Look at the Tier 3 decks in the TCG - those are the kind of balance levels that are encouraged.

Erm, I don't know what the Tier 3 is this year. I don't even know what decks were in Tier 3, period. I always thought tiers were made by usage, and not overall power.


Another thing that bugs me are the player ideals of "luck is bad for the game". If entire games were based on skill, then the first person to go would always win. Players would not need to shuffle their deck at all. The thing is, luck makes it so there are different chances for each player to win, and it's not always set up so the first person to go will always win, hands down, because they can unleash their combos and strategy first. You draw a card at the wrong time, tough crap. It happens. Somebody drew one card that allowed them to unravel your entire strategy and gain a win (ha, Brain Control), get over it and go to the next game. As bad as overdependance on luck will get, some luck is needed to destroy the monotony and the formulaic processing of most duels.

Darkest Hour wrote:Look at the Tier 3 decks in the TCG - those are the kind of balance levels that are encouraged.

Erm, I don't know what the Tier 3 is this year. I don't even know what decks were in Tier 3, period. I always thought tiers were made by usage, and not overall power.


Another thing that bugs me are the player ideals of "luck is bad for the game". If entire games were based on skill, then the first person to go would always win. Players would not need to shuffle their deck at all. The thing is, luck makes it so there are different chances for each player to win, and it's not always set up so the first person to go will always win, hands down, because they can unleash their combos and strategy first. You draw a card at the wrong time, tough crap. It happens. Somebody drew one card that allowed them to unravel your entire strategy and gain a win (ha, Brain Control), get over it and go to the next game. As bad as overdependance on luck will get, some luck is needed to destroy the monotony and the formulaic processing of most duels.

Tiers are based on usage but usage is based on power, hence why Tier 3 decks never win a YCS. I have always thought that luck was a part of the game, but the game shouldn't rely solely on being lucky enough to get a single card from your deck that makes you win the duel. It's about keeping the balance between strategy and luck.

So, we are going to be using slightly-generic cards rather than "good but not broken" cards for Tier 3? Because back in 2010, decks like Volcanics, Zombies and Plants were Tier 3, and they were not very mediocre cards, except for most of the Volcanics.

Darkest Hour wrote:So, we are going to be using slightly-generic cards rather than "good but not broken" cards for Tier 3? Because back in 2010, decks like Volcanics, Zombies and Plants were Tier 3, and they were not very mediocre cards, except for most of the Volcanics.

Sorry could you please elaborate a little bit more? Your question implies that slightly-generic cards cannot be good and balanced at the same time? Or am I just missing something obvious?

Seattleite wrote:

Darkest Hour wrote:So, we are going to be using slightly-generic cards rather than "good but not broken" cards for Tier 3? Because back in 2010, decks like Volcanics, Zombies and Plants were Tier 3, and they were not very mediocre cards, except for most of the Volcanics.

Sorry could you please elaborate a little bit more? Your question implies that slightly-generic cards cannot be good and balanced at the same time? Or am I just missing something obvious?

Well, I mean:

Mystical Space Typhoon vs. Twister
Heavy Storm vs. Tornado
Mirror Force vs. Radiant Mirror Force

Something like that, but archetype related, also related to another point I was going to make concerning splashability. How many variants of Mirror Force are too many?

Darkest Hour wrote:
Well, I mean:

Mystical Space Typhoon vs. Twister
Heavy Storm vs. Tornado
Mirror Force vs. Radiant Mirror Force

Something like that, but archetype related, also related to another point I was going to make concerning splashability. How many variants of Mirror Force are too many?

Oh, ok.

No, we aren't going to have universal staples like MST, Heavy or Mirror Force. At least, not any more like them. This doesn't mean they can't be powerful, they just can't be so good and so generic that every deck will want to use them, instead of their own forms. For example instead of something like MST, we have different forms for different kinds of decks. "Heroes Barging In", is for swarm, or anti-swarm. Picking Pigeon is for control. Lucrative Scroll Trade is for archetype decks, etc. MST is being split up into different cards.

As far as specific themed support goes, it would be relative. Balance in each of those would be relative to the theme.

However, there is going to be limits. If someone makes a Normal Trap card with the effect "Activate only when your opponent declares an attack against a FIRE monster you control. Destroy all monsters your opponent controls." That would not be accepted, but that's just because that's the level of balance the LCCG is focused around.

And I doubt it will happen, but in case someone creates a card like "Activate only when you control a WATER monster. Destroy 1 Spell or Trap card." That's fine, but we aren't going to let the same version of the card be made for every single Type or Every Single attribute. That would just make deckbuilding boring, and ruin the entire objective of this rule.

Another thing I thought of was the whole "CCG Ban List" thing. I don't see why a card would be deemed too powerful unless there was absolutely no way an overpowered card would be allowed to be released, and how interloops and outerloops could be stopped before they are released, and to make sure that OTKs and FTKs are negated right on the spot.

If a card is too much for certain players to handle in many numbers, perhaps they could just...make new cards that could handle the effects? Perhaps they could make their cards better and have a backup strategy or added micromanagement to prevent them from falling into the "Stumbling kills all Cloudians" problem?

Sometimes certain archetypes and gimmicks will not work. Think about Dark Scorpions. Most of their ATK is so low they probably won't be handling a good 1900 ATK monster on the first turn without Spell and Trap card support, and even then they can't survive on their own very well. THere is also Ultimate weaknesses, where you make a weakness for a card become so commonly exploited it would be better off not running the card at all, or make the drawback so high it would make more sense to just run Normal monsters instead.

Darkest Hour wrote:Another thing I thought of was the whole "CCG Ban List" thing. I don't see why a card would be deemed too powerful unless there was absolutely no way an overpowered card would be allowed to be released, and how interloops and outerloops could be stopped before they are released, and to make sure that OTKs and FTKs are negated right on the spot.

If a card is too much for certain players to handle in many numbers, perhaps they could just...make new cards that could handle the effects? Perhaps they could make their cards better and have a backup strategy or added micromanagement to prevent them from falling into the "Stumbling kills all Cloudians" problem?

Sometimes certain archetypes and gimmicks will not work. Think about Dark Scorpions. Most of their ATK is so low they probably won't be handling a good 1900 ATK monster on the first turn without Spell and Trap card support, and even then they can't survive on their own very well. THere is also Ultimate weaknesses, where you make a weakness for a card become so commonly exploited it would be better off not running the card at all, or make the drawback so high it would make more sense to just run Normal monsters instead.

While it's true that decks always need a backup strategy and to conceal their weaknesses the best they can, there is a point where techs take up too much deckspace, or the power of these cards run in numbers is so great the meta is warped. Let's say Enchanted Circle and Twin Double Crossers are unlimited and used in 3's. Now running high level, high-cost, powerful monsters becomes a huge risk since they can get stolen so easily. They are both limited right now so that there is a small risk of that but not so much that paralyzing fear of these cards is produced.

And another example, if there's a deck that relies on a lot of traps, and royal decree is submitted @3, then they have to run much more S/T removal or their whole deck is destroyed. If royal decree, or a card like it, was released @1 in the CCG, the Trap deck player would obviously have to run some S/T removal (which is good), but not so much that your deck is over-teched, because it's impossible to tech against every deck out there.

Now comes the amount of negation there is to the game. Sure, people don't like having their cards negated, but people also don't like not being able to stop something that comes out.

What is the policy on the strength of cards that negate? Say cards like Horn of Heaven, Solemn Judgment, Divine Wrath and the like?

My general rule is if the card is a Generic, Unconditional counter trap, it can't be 1 for 1.

However if I created a card like "Negate the activation and effect of a Continuous Spell or Trap card and destroy it", that would be fine, even though it's 1 for 1 the requirement is more specific.

Usually the wider the range of cards negated, the greater the cost will be.

Horn of Heaven and Divine Wrath would be fine. A better Horn of Heaven has already been submitted (hinderance), and even a Divine Wrath without the discard would be fine, IMO. Solemn Judgment however is not. The cost late game is too small and negates almost everything.

How about Solemn Warning?

would not be accepted, the cost for negating a summon is small in a speedy deck, plus we already have a summon negater (Hinderance)

Chaos Trap Hole (with 1000 LP instead of 2000?)

Here's some other cards I thought of:

Mezuki Variants (Remove from Graveyard to SS Monster)
Necro Gardna Variants (Remove from Grave to negate cards)
Injection Fairy Lily
Dark World/Fabled Monster Variants
Future Fusion
Golden Sarcophagus
Transmigration Break
Mind Crush
Magical Thorn
Honest
Effect Veiler
Battle Fader
Veil of Darkness
Magician of Faith
Mask of Darkness

fine with me

Chaos Trap hole IS balanced, but we probably don't want too many of those side-decky cards floating around.

Mezuki Variants would probably not be accepted exactly like Mezuki. However, Mystical Mage of the mountain exists, and SS's itself. Any variants will likely have a Level or ATK restriction.

Necro Gardna Variants can be accepted.

Injection Fairy Lily variants would probably be accepted

Dark World/Fabled Monster Variants could probably be accepted

Future Fusion would Not be accepted, since it makes for easy dumping with generic fusions.

In this CCG, Golden Sarcophagus might be accepted, but limited

Transmigration Break could be accepted

Mind Crush could be accepted as an anti-searching heavy card

Magical Thorn could be accepted

Honest would not be accepted

Effect Veiler already kinda is accepted with Electron and Nox Exploiter

A Battle Fader variant already is, Escroc le Annuleur

Veil of Darkness could probably be accepted

Magician of Faith would not be accepted

Mask of Darkness could be accepted


*DISCLAIMER - Cards with the exact same effects and stats as a TCG card will not be accepted, unless deemed necessary to the game*

Honest would not be accepted

:<

Why?

Because of the kind of Psychological effect it puts on the game when playing against LIGHTs, and because it's almost impossible to counter.