Comparing ATK and Effect Potency

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Comparing ATK and Effect Potency Empty Comparing ATK and Effect Potency

Post by Seattleite on Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:55 am

This is kind of a rant like Aquamarius', directed at no one in particular, but i've noticed there's a lot of monsters with powerful effects and consistently being 1800 ATK, 1900 ATK, etc.

Could I just remind you that the ATK and Effect Potency should be inversely related. If you make godmonz with 1900 ATK, what does that say about 1900 ATK normal monsters? Or 1900 ATK effect monsters with not too gamebreaking effects for that matter? ATK does make an impact on the power of the card, it's not something that should be taken lightly.

So when you make cards, make sure that their effects leave room for smaller monsters to compete.

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Comparing ATK and Effect Potency Empty Re: Comparing ATK and Effect Potency

Post by AsianGuy1137 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:23 am

That is true - we already have enough cards like Pyromaniac Angel, Dreadcaster, Thunder Baboon, etc... Let's not try to make all their TCG counterparts a part of the CCG (and this is coming from a guy who's in love with Rai-Oh).

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Comparing ATK and Effect Potency Empty Re: Comparing ATK and Effect Potency

Post by Anime Girl References on Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:38 am

1900 ATK Normal monsters are fundamentally...shitty.

Without an effect, the attack is the only good thing going for them, and even then Normal Monsters are being phased out of usability and existence as the game marches forward, and away from vanilla beatsticking.

As much as I like to cling to the Rules of 2000 & 3000, I realize using Normal Monsters as an example to enforce this is pretty useless considering the most Vanil's can do is go into attack position, go into defense position, or attack. That ATK or DEF stat alone does not justify it's space in the deck, and I haven't seen a viable Normal Monster Beatdown in this CCG at all that would merit restricting high ATK to only Normal Monsters since they have no real reason to do it.

Not only that, giving a monster an awesome effect and 1800 ATK isn't as bad as it seems. Pushing up towards the 1950+ ATK mark would be unsettling, considering that pushes beyond even the normal monster standards (we don't have any 1950-2000 ATK Normals at all)

It's usually not how good the effect is, but how well it can be applied towards it's own ATK/DEF stat. Generally cards have roles, which everyone kind of comes to an agreement with on how it should work and define a card that looks overpowered at first but settles into a "whatever" card.

A 1900 ATK Beatstick monster with "Unaffected by Trap Cards" is powerful indeed, but keeps within it's intended role as a beatstick since it's not doing anything else with that effect except avoid sakuretsu and other cards, and doesn't do much to protect other cards as well. generally beatstick monsters should be selfish, and do not affect other cards since it's main directive is to destroy monsters and attack life points.

A 1900 ATK that negates traps is another story, since it's affecting the game well-beyond itself and going from a solitary beatstick to a control or lockdown support card, in which a problem such as that should be addressed.

And with that said, there's always room to check the card pool. Does this type really need another 1800 ATK support monster out of it's pool of 9 different others that can suit a different role? What is this type primarily geared towards? Burn, quick summoning, beatsticking? I can see how having a singular-typed deck composed of nothing but 1800 ATK Level 4 Effect Monsters with no consistency issues, or an entire archetype of Level 4 monsters whose ATK never drops below 1800 would be a problem...

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Comparing ATK and Effect Potency Empty Re: Comparing ATK and Effect Potency

Post by CNo.101 S.H.Death Knight on Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:50 am

OH crud, DH just beat me to it so i had to modify my post Razz

but most of time Vanilla monster doesn't provide much other than attacking monsters that are weaker then them and inflict considerable damage as well. while 1900 ATK monster with double-edge sword effects is better that you get some beneficial profits from them and while it have drawbacks you can work on it or just accept it. with drawbacks, it basically make you deal with it creatively tbh. for example Dragion Berserker, it's an awesome draw engine beatsticks but it lose ATK points as turns goes by without destroying a monster, it that really much of a problem? Not really, since you have spell or traps support to deal with it and it would actually take on surprises to your opponent. so like Armor Leprosy is one of the great way to fix Berserker's problem of ATk loss then recovering the loss ATK afterward but it pluses you for destroying a monster in your opponent's battle phase and drawing a card by then.


Last edited by Scheath666 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:59 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Seattleite on Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Well I didn't say anything about ATK maxes for Level. 1900 ATK normal monsters was a bad example, and they could go higher. But you see my point right? Yes, whether the effect affects cards outside of itself matters greatly, that would also go under what I meant by "Effect Potency".

"A 1900 ATK that negates traps is another story" - yep, that's a good example. Hypothetically speaking, we can say that this monster needs to have much lower ATK (ignoring other balance issues)

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Post by Anime Girl References on Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:57 am

So on the basis of ATK and Beatsticks....

Weaksticks are like 1800-1850
Beatsticks are 1900
Meatsticks are 1950-2000 and higher

Meatsticks should be vanilla standard, and shouldn't have Effect monsters encroach on their stats unless they have some reasonable restrictions.

So it's a vanil's own fault for being outclassed by Effect Monsters if it's ATK is 1850 or lower since that's the medium-high mark for Effect Beatsticks.

1900 is as high as Effect Beatsticks should go if they want to be made without restrictions. And even then should be kept to a reasonable amount since having 10 Effectsticks vs. 4 Vanilsticks could cause problems.

Take for example, Chainsaw Insect. shouldn't have existed, should have had 2100 etc. and all that Jazz, versus something like Giant Kozaky. Extremely hampening effect, but with Skill Drainesque antics it's almost like normal summoning a 2500 ATK level 6, except not.
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Post by CNo.101 S.H.Death Knight on Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:05 am

well that was a good example pointing out the chainsaw insect and Giant Kozaky, considering, Chainsaw insect can run over monster that are 2300 ATK or under plus dealing over 1/4 of the LP total and your opponent only just draw 1 card and that's it.

Giant Kozaky with skill drain did pose a threat but until you destroy skill drain, the threat begone. we don't really see much ppl who use skill drain deck uses Giant Kozaky tbh but i do get where you coming from, it's like the stats is in a form of illusion in Level 6+ "meatsticks" in Level 4 monster.

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Comparing ATK and Effect Potency Empty Re: Comparing ATK and Effect Potency

Post by Aquamarius on Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:31 pm

My own private rules :
No monsters at or near the cap with particularly good effects
1900 is the lv4 or lower cap for drawbackless monsters
2600 is the lv5-6 cap for drawbackless monsters
Vanilla lv4 or lowers can go 100 points above the cap
Vanilla lv5-6 can go 200 points above the cap

Although I agreed at first, there don't seem to be as many 1800-1900s as I suspected. They're roughly equal to the amount of 1600-1700's. Also, I find Chainsaw Insect and Giant Kozaky perfectly fine, seeing as they have nasty drawbacks.
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Post by Anime Girl References on Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:40 pm

Well I guess that brings us to Thunder-King Rai-Oh and Doomcaliber Knight, which work as beatsticks pretty well since using their effects kills them (except for 1/2 of Rai-Oh's effect).

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Post by Aquamarius on Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:01 pm

Rai-Oh's only drawback is that you can't toolbox things. It's tribute effect isn't mandatory, so I'd say it doesn't really count in the same way Doomcaliber does.
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