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A Guide for Correct OCG Empty A Guide for Correct OCG

Post by DIGITAL on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:26 am

http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/301087-ocg-thread-common-terms-and-phrases-other-useful-tips/

This is VERY Helpful... I highly recommend we read through this and from now on try to make cards accordingly.
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Post by Anime Girl References on Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:49 pm

So, when a card reads "Select 1 monster on the field: destroy it", do you have to write "Select & target 1 monster on the field" or is it implied that by selecting a specific card you're targeting it?

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Post by DIGITAL on Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:53 pm

I believe if you're destroying it you must target
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Post by Ash on Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:29 pm

destruction doesn't necessarily mean you have to target, for instance smashing ground destroys a card at resolution of the card rather than the player picking a target.

as far as i'm aware, if you are selecting a card at activation, it will target.

in dh's example you have "select: destroy" - the selection is performed upon activation of the card and can be interchangeable with target, either wording is fine. a card that says target however will always by letter of ruling always target. a card that says select may not but usually will target. destroy is then performed at resolution of the card and is how we know that when a chain is resolving that the card will fail to resolve if the target is no longer on the field - a process called "fizzling".

the instances in which a card destroys but don't target are usually dependent on card values, fissure/smashing ground etc. the first indicators are the lack of words that indicate free choice - while there are cards like mystical space typhoon that clearly indicate you can pick from multiple targets, with smashing ground, it will only destroy a card that meets its criteria when it reaches resolution of its effect.

short version:
destruction doesn't always target
selecting doesn't always target (normally does), targeting always targets (obviously)
a card that picks a target at resolution doesn't actually target (rulingwise)

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Post by CNo.101 S.H.Death Knight on Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:18 pm

Ash wrote:destruction doesn't necessarily mean you have to target, for instance smashing ground destroys a card at resolution of the card rather than the player picking a target.

as far as i'm aware, if you are selecting a card at activation, it will target.

in dh's example you have "select: destroy" - the selection is performed upon activation of the card and can be interchangeable with target, either wording is fine. a card that says target however will always by letter of ruling always target. a card that says select may not but usually will target. destroy is then performed at resolution of the card and is how we know that when a chain is resolving that the card will fail to resolve if the target is no longer on the field - a process called "fizzling".

the instances in which a card destroys but don't target are usually dependent on card values, fissure/smashing ground etc. the first indicators are the lack of words that indicate free choice - while there are cards like mystical space typhoon that clearly indicate you can pick from multiple targets, with smashing ground, it will only destroy a card that meets its criteria when it reaches resolution of its effect.

short version:
destruction doesn't always target
selecting doesn't always target (normally does), targeting always targets (obviously)
a card that picks a target at resolution doesn't actually target (rulingwise)

I did find it strange in regard to that Spellbook of Fate, I mean you still choosing a card but pretty much there a timing thing happening at the resolution that make it like that

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Post by Seattleite on Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:19 pm

So with Spellbook of Fate and the like, is this the difference between targeting at resolution and targeting at activation?

"Banish 1 card your opponent controls"

v.s.

"Target 1 card your opponent controls; Banish it."


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Post by EMSOUP on Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:14 pm

If you control a Spellcaster-Type monster: You can banish up to 3 "Spellbook" Spell Cards from your Graveyard; apply this effect, depending on the number of Spell Cards banished for this card's activation. You can only activate 1 "Spellbook of Fate" per turn.
● 1: Return 1 Set Spell/Trap Card to the hand.
● 2: Change 1 monster on the field to either face-down Defense Position or face-up Attack Position.
● 3: Banish 1 card your opponent controls.

i think it doesn't target since the effect is declared when the card is resolved, thus making the card immediately applies the effect to something.

 EDIT1: just found this on wiki
When an effect targets, it chooses at the time of activation the specific card(s) that it will affect.

Fate chooses at the resolution which card it would affect, so it doesn't target.

 EDIT2: not really sure though, since the ruling page of the wiki lists dark hole, fissure, and raigeki as targetting.
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Post by CNo.101 S.H.Death Knight on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:46 pm

EMSOUP wrote:If you control a Spellcaster-Type monster: You can banish up to 3 "Spellbook" Spell Cards from your Graveyard; apply this effect, depending on the number of Spell Cards banished for this card's activation. You can only activate 1 "Spellbook of Fate" per turn.
● 1: Return 1 Set Spell/Trap Card to the hand.
● 2: Change 1 monster on the field to either face-down Defense Position or face-up Attack Position.
● 3: Banish 1 card your opponent controls.

i think it doesn't target since the effect is declared when the card is resolved, thus making the card immediately applies the effect to something.

 EDIT1: just found this on wiki
When an effect targets, it chooses at the time of activation the specific card(s) that it will affect.

Fate chooses at the resolution which card it would affect, so it doesn't target.

 EDIT2: not really sure though, since the ruling page of the wiki lists dark hole, fissure, and raigeki as targetting.

Ok the last part about raigeki and dark hole is bs. And for wiki rulings, it seem it doesn't give any timing to resolution effect as it choose and destroy in the same time whereas choosing a card in activation and effect resolve in resolution have its own kind of timing to allow other cards to acknowledge that targeting is confirmed.

_________________
"In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity."
"Curiosity does, no less than devotion, pilgrims make."
"The life which is unexamined is not worth living."
"We learn to do something by doing it. There is no other way."
"If life’s journey be endless where is its goal? The answer is, it is everywhere."
"The use of traveling is to regulate imagination by reality and, instead of thinking how things may be, to see them as they are."
"Those who plot the destruction of others often perish in the attempt."
"Sarcasm: the last refuge of the modest people when the privacy of the soul is intrusively invaded."
"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path."
"While we are postponing, life speeds by."
"Defeatism is the wretchedest of policies."
"Courage is not the towering oak that sees storms come and go–it is the fragile blossom that opens in the snow."
"Although the world is full of suffering it is also full of the overcoming of it."
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Post by Ash on Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:10 am

Scheath666 wrote:
EMSOUP wrote:If you control a Spellcaster-Type monster: You can banish up to 3 "Spellbook" Spell Cards from your Graveyard; apply this effect, depending on the number of Spell Cards banished for this card's activation. You can only activate 1 "Spellbook of Fate" per turn.
● 1: Return 1 Set Spell/Trap Card to the hand.
● 2: Change 1 monster on the field to either face-down Defense Position or face-up Attack Position.
● 3: Banish 1 card your opponent controls.

i think it doesn't target since the effect is declared when the card is resolved, thus making the card immediately applies the effect to something.

 EDIT1: just found this on wiki
When an effect targets, it chooses at the time of activation the specific card(s) that it will affect.

Fate chooses at the resolution which card it would affect, so it doesn't target.

 EDIT2: not really sure though, since the ruling page of the wiki lists dark hole, fissure, and raigeki as targetting.

Ok the last part about raigeki and dark hole is bs. And for wiki rulings, it seem it doesn't give any timing to resolution effect as it choose and destroy in the same time whereas choosing a card in activation and effect resolve in resolution have its own kind of timing to allow other cards to acknowledge that targeting is confirmed.

regarding raigeki and dark hole, when it would affect multiple cards then it can't simply target all of them at activation and will indiscriminately destroy all of them. if only one card would be affected, then it will be targeted

at least i'm sure this is how it happens

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Post by OmegaWave on Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:34 am

Since when did mass destruction involve choices? No, the part about Fate is correct, Dark Hole/Raigeki/Fissure, etc do not target.

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Post by CNo.101 S.H.Death Knight on Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:28 am

OmegaWave wrote:Since when did mass destruction involve choices? No, the part about Fate is correct, Dark Hole/Raigeki/Fissure, etc do not target.

 they never do because it kill anything

_________________
"In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity."
"Curiosity does, no less than devotion, pilgrims make."
"The life which is unexamined is not worth living."
"We learn to do something by doing it. There is no other way."
"If life’s journey be endless where is its goal? The answer is, it is everywhere."
"The use of traveling is to regulate imagination by reality and, instead of thinking how things may be, to see them as they are."
"Those who plot the destruction of others often perish in the attempt."
"Sarcasm: the last refuge of the modest people when the privacy of the soul is intrusively invaded."
"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path."
"While we are postponing, life speeds by."
"Defeatism is the wretchedest of policies."
"Courage is not the towering oak that sees storms come and go–it is the fragile blossom that opens in the snow."
"Although the world is full of suffering it is also full of the overcoming of it."
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Post by CNo.101 S.H.Death Knight on Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:30 am

Ash wrote:
Scheath666 wrote:
EMSOUP wrote:If you control a Spellcaster-Type monster: You can banish up to 3 "Spellbook" Spell Cards from your Graveyard; apply this effect, depending on the number of Spell Cards banished for this card's activation. You can only activate 1 "Spellbook of Fate" per turn.
● 1: Return 1 Set Spell/Trap Card to the hand.
● 2: Change 1 monster on the field to either face-down Defense Position or face-up Attack Position.
● 3: Banish 1 card your opponent controls.

i think it doesn't target since the effect is declared when the card is resolved, thus making the card immediately applies the effect to something.

 EDIT1: just found this on wiki
When an effect targets, it chooses at the time of activation the specific card(s) that it will affect.

Fate chooses at the resolution which card it would affect, so it doesn't target.

 EDIT2: not really sure though, since the ruling page of the wiki lists dark hole, fissure, and raigeki as targetting.

Ok the last part about raigeki and dark hole is bs. And for wiki rulings, it seem it doesn't give any timing to resolution effect as it choose and destroy in the same time whereas choosing a card in activation and effect resolve in resolution have its own kind of timing to allow other cards to acknowledge that targeting is confirmed.

regarding raigeki and dark hole, when it would affect multiple cards then it can't simply target all of them at activation and will indiscriminately destroy all of them. if only one card would be affected, then it will be targeted

at least i'm sure this is how it happens

 i misread Soup's post, I already know those cards never targets as they never give choices

The way soup wordes it as if they have rulings for targeting but they never target at all.of any a "non-targeting" rulings i guess.

Edit: okay it seem i double posted by accident but why the sections splitted?

_________________
"In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity."
"Curiosity does, no less than devotion, pilgrims make."
"The life which is unexamined is not worth living."
"We learn to do something by doing it. There is no other way."
"If life’s journey be endless where is its goal? The answer is, it is everywhere."
"The use of traveling is to regulate imagination by reality and, instead of thinking how things may be, to see them as they are."
"Those who plot the destruction of others often perish in the attempt."
"Sarcasm: the last refuge of the modest people when the privacy of the soul is intrusively invaded."
"There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path."
"While we are postponing, life speeds by."
"Defeatism is the wretchedest of policies."
"Courage is not the towering oak that sees storms come and go–it is the fragile blossom that opens in the snow."
"Although the world is full of suffering it is also full of the overcoming of it."
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